14:02:41 #startmeeting oVirt Infra weekly sync 14:02:41 Meeting started Tue Sep 4 14:02:41 2012 UTC. The chair is quaid. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:02:41 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 14:02:53 Hi quaid 14:02:55 * dneary is here 14:02:59 #topic Roll call & agenda chat 14:03:03 * quaid here too 14:03:04 hey dneary 14:03:06 * garrett_ is here 14:03:18 #chair garrett_ dneary mburns RobertM eedri 14:03:18 Current chairs: RobertM dneary eedri garrett_ mburns quaid 14:03:27 * quaid has learned, give chair early and often 14:03:59 * RobertM here 14:04:01 * sgordon 14:04:08 dneary: no 2.5 --> ovirt 3.1 14:04:12 * eedri here 14:04:25 * mburns here 14:04:40 ok, I'm looking in to the agenda, give me a moment ... 14:04:47 mburns, And master -> 3.2 I suppose 14:04:52 dneary: yes 14:04:53 * quaid took actual days off this long weekend 14:05:38 quaid: days off? what are those? 14:05:41 ok, in no particular order I think we have: 14:05:44 * Hosting 14:06:11 * Task tracking 14:06:36 last week: 14:06:38 http://ovirt.org/meetings/ovirt/2012/ovirt.2012-08-28-14.00.html 14:06:58 * Puppet (w/o ewoud) 14:07:08 * Jenkins for a fun ending? 14:07:15 anything else on anyone's mind? 14:07:19 how are folks doing? 14:08:13 I'd like some more feedback on the designs & ideas I sent to the list, but I'm not sure if today's meeting is the place for that. 14:08:38 14[[07Infrastructure team meetings14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=4356&oldid=4229&rcid=4457 5* 03Quaid 5* (+94) 10opening agenda for the day 14:09:04 garrett_, Tomorrow's might be more appropriate, and we can perhaps ask that it be added to the agenda? 14:09:06 garrett_: we'll want to talk back-end details about that - I know you have some ideas/concerns about the multiple content systems, etc. 14:09:15 dneary, yeah, that sounds good 14:09:24 but yeah, Infra is more about implementing what the overall project wants 14:09:31 * mburns will add it to the agenda for tomorrow 14:09:35 garrett_, And yes, back-end discussions (particularly around fixing search) are relevant here 14:09:46 okay, great 14:09:58 garrett_: how about a section where you fill us in on the problems, I'll put it in the middle of the agenda 14:10:13 quaid, for tomorrow? sure. sounds great. 14:10:34 14[[07Infrastructure team meetings14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=4357&oldid=4356&rcid=4458 5* 03Quaid 5* (+39) 10/* 2012-09-04 */ adding garrett's topics 14:10:45 garrett_: I mean for today, those are relevant here I think 14:10:51 oh ok 14:10:58 and it's good to talk about stuff multiple times, so it sinks in. OK? 14:11:01 14[[07Meetings14]]4 !10 02http://wiki.ovirt.org/w/index.php?diff=4358&oldid=4287&rcid=4459 5* 03Mburns 5* (+13) 10/* Weekly project sync meeting */  14:11:03 sure 14:11:08 ok then 14:11:17 #topic Hosting ... 14:11:47 my short take is, I'm overwhelmed by the options out there & am researching entirely from scratch 14:12:12 RobertM & I still have to schedule a time this week to research together 14:13:01 #idea get a BIG server to do Jenkins, and a not-so-BIG server to host VMs so we can split services to different hosts (e.g. wiki, lists, etc.) 14:13:24 #info try to do that to start with $200/mon and see where that gets us 14:13:26 quaid, We also have gerrit 14:13:40 RobertM: I was wondering if that could live on one of the VMs? 14:15:07 quaid, Might be able to if the 2nd box had decent IO gerrit biggest issue seems to be IO just like jenkins 14:15:07 RobertM, quaid gerrit has periodic issues (stuck/non-responsive) 14:15:23 RobertM, quaid maybe it's a good idea to understand if it related to performance issues 14:15:33 RobertM, quaid before moving it to a new server 14:16:19 RobertM, you believe its IO related ? 14:17:07 #info Gerritt may need a good IO, cf. Jenkins 14:17:07 eedri, The speed issue I think are. 14:18:28 The completely Stuck / Non-responsive issue I am not as sure about since I haven't been able to log into gerrit well it is happening 14:19:05 itamar, ^^ 14:19:28 itamar, do we know why gerrit is periodicly stuck? it might help deciding on new vm/hardware to migrate it to 14:20:46 gerrit is peridically stuck due to a jetty bug on heavy load. a stronger/faster machine makes this less of an issue. 14:21:20 if it won't solve it, we can do a tomcat container instead of jetty, but it doesn't seem to be a very common deployment, and i prefer KISS 14:21:28 so we can go with stronger/faster. 14:21:45 ok 14:21:48 then we can add the cron job other people added which checks if the log contains the jetty error and recycles the service 14:22:28 #info Gerritt occasional sticking problem due to jetty bug on heavy load; stronger/faster machine will help make this less of an issue; an alternate is to run the less common configuration of Tomcat as a container 14:22:59 #idea add cron job that checks if the log contains the jetty error, then recycles the service 14:23:09 ok, I think that gives us a fair architecture to consider 14:24:57 I'd also consider a cron that restarts the service every saturday for good measure 14:25:21 #idea weekly cronjob to restart jetty (on Saturday) just in case 14:25:40 btw, it was just down now, unrelated to the jetty issue (first time in a few months i see a hang not related to the jetty issue) 14:25:48 ok, I'll schedule some time with RobertM to see if we can narrow down options for hosting - KVM based, etc. 14:25:50 restart solve the issue. 14:26:14 itamar, jenkins info queue is big, might be it affects gerrit service? 14:26:23 info queue? 14:26:29 itamar, we seem to have a long backlog that current vm can't handle 14:26:41 itamar, i mean jenkins.ovirt.info that runs all the patch jobs 14:27:20 git pull will be heavy till we move to a new server, but the hang didn't seem related to that. 14:27:49 also - maybe allow a jenkins jobs to a few people to restart gerrit on these hangs (limited permission to jenkins, limited permission to the job to more people) - so resatrting the gerrit service won't need permissions to the gerrit server itself 14:28:33 itamar, we could add sudo access to 'service' and 'jenkins' user 14:28:38 itamar, on gerrit server 14:29:00 that's what i meant, or to a script which does 'service gerrit restart' 14:29:28 then you can schedule the restart on saturdays from jenkins, plus, allow selected people a permission to run it manually on a gerrit hang 14:29:57 #action add jenkins job to run remote cmd on gerrit.ovirt.org that will restart gerrit service. requires sudo access for jenkins user on gerrit 14:30:04 +1 14:30:23 anything more on hosting? 14:30:42 #action quaid and RobertM to meet on IRC to narrow down & pick some hosting options 14:30:47 kind-of a carryover from last week :) 14:32:09 ok, moving to the next topic ... 14:32:28 #topic Infra task trackers 14:33:09 quaid, On task trackers: Is it possible to re-use something we use already, instead of adding Yet Another Tool? 14:33:27 quaid, I lose track of all the bugzillas, redmines, tracs, wikis, ... 14:33:57 i think we should start with what we have, i.e Trac 14:34:23 unless someone is volunteering to install a new server :) 14:35:04 * quaid reads the thread on the list, is back 14:35:26 right, easiest is to use the oVirt Trac instance on fedorahosted.org 14:35:49 this is about giving this team a place to track it's work, and secondarily giving people a way to file requests instead of "email the list" 14:36:25 RobertM: yt? 14:37:19 there is some risk in switching around later, but as this is not a project wide service with lots of interactions (such as the bug tracker) ... 14:38:18 I'll reply to RobertM's comments on list, so we don't have to drag on here 14:38:41 #action decide on task trackers on the infra list 14:38:55 #topic Website, CMS, broken search 14:39:15 garrett_: I read a bit about this from yesterday, but can you fill us in on what is broken about search and how we are managing content on *.ovirt.org? 14:39:34 right now, if you search for pretty much anything, you will not find what you're looking for 14:39:52 part of the reason is because the most useful documentation is hosted on the wiki, and in PDFs 14:40:07 The two ways other projects have seem to do it is 1) override internal search and simple use goggle 14:40:10 so search on the WordPress side then? 14:40:10 however, we do also have some useful content on the WordPress hosted site too, but not nearly as much 14:40:14 as opposed to the wiki search? 14:40:24 right now, the search is on the WP side, not the MW side of things 14:40:35 there is a MW search, just on the wiki.o.org side 14:40:46 I think it's pretty confusing to have more than one project website 14:40:51 and no order between the two of them 14:41:16 the more I work on these mockups, the more I think we should seriously consider switching to a wiki-powered site so everything's in one place 14:41:25 it shouldn't look wiki-ish 14:41:33 but can be powered by MediaWiki 14:42:09 there are a few reasons for considering switching everything to the wiki, too 14:42:18 1) content is all in one place 14:42:39 2) because the content is in one place, we can have search work ourselves, without relying on external parties (such as google) 14:42:52 3) the new site design can be implemented once, not multiple times 14:43:10 4) we can make the navigation a bit more clear for users of the site 14:43:35 5) there's no question where the content belongs (right now we have to ask if it should go to WP or MW) 14:43:42 MW is as extensible as WP, I'm just less familiar with what is out there 14:43:48 6) it enables more people to edit the pages 14:44:22 quaid, yes, I'm more familiar with WP than MW too, but have set up sites using both before in the past 14:44:31 #6 can be consider a con as well. 14:44:34 and also, yes, MW is very extensible too 14:44:56 RobertM, we wouldn't want just anyone messing with the front-facing pages, naturally, so those should be locked down 14:45:04 like top-section-level 14:45:09 garrett_: If we can make it look slick, then that seems a good way to go. 14:45:15 RobertM: generally, we want content editing barriers as low as we can make them, in a FOSS project that is :) 14:45:20 front page, and first page for the navigation (with the exception of docs and/or development) 14:45:38 cctrieloff, we definitely can make it look slick 14:45:50 quaid, totally 14:45:54 I know there is also a trend to put teh full site in GIT, and then have it generated. both work, with the key being everyone can edit / work on it and have it look really good 14:45:59 garrett_: my biggest concern is going to be, can we extend the website based on MW without having to bring a PHP hacker in to Infra just for that :) 14:46:10 I haven't really seen main project based entirely on mediawiki look slick. 14:46:13 I agree: having a git-based site is another valid approach 14:46:26 cctrieloff: so folks have to check in /out of git to edit the site? sounds like a high barrier, though 14:46:34 whatever we do, we should have 1 way of doing things, and it should be consistent and simple for people to contribute 14:46:48 there are git-based wikis 14:46:56 for content, we want to be sure *users* can edit 14:46:57 github uses one, and it's open source too 14:47:01 ok, I see 14:47:07 back to the extensible part - plugins, etc. 14:47:11 it uses markdown, so it's plain text for editing 14:47:16 having the project show well I needs to be a large consideration.. 14:47:29 https://github.com/github/gollum 14:47:48 unless gollum has a nice ecosystem we can pull from ... 14:48:08 quaid, we should define what we want from any ecosystem 14:48:18 ok 14:48:40 I think we can probably get away with a minimum of extensions/plugins/add-ons/etc. 14:48:55 and still have a very compelling, useful website 14:48:56 #idea Popular enough so the pool of Infra hackers is wide and deep 14:49:50 #idea Pool of extensions that we can draw from so we have to invent little to none 14:50:03 Personally I think what we have works just needs some cleanup. There are a few ways to combine search between the sites. 14:50:24 RobertM: there are a few things not addressed with that, though 14:50:44 RobertM: for example, where do you put content? WP or MW? How do you know when you've got something to post where it goes? 14:51:27 RobertM: there is also #3, not having to implement a new design in two different theming systems (WP, MW) 14:51:33 hi all, can someone confirm that dns SRV port is 389 for using ovirt with rhds ? 14:52:12 #idea Github's gollum is a git-backed wiki that is growing in popularity, may work 14:52:37 for oVirt, I think having a wiki of some sort makes a lot of sense, and that's why I'm suggesting to transition to a wiki-only site 14:52:52 since it can do everything WordPress is doing for us right now 14:53:05 later on, we can tack on a blog too, if we desire 14:53:21 rather than tacking on a wiki for content on top of a content site powered by a blog engine 14:53:57 quaid, ping 14:54:00 +1 on wiki being a great lowest-common tool 14:54:04 dyasny: pong 14:54:11 garrett_, quaid I agree having a wiki is a good idea but maybe I have never seen it done right but every site I have seen based entirely on a wiki looks poorly done 14:54:17 quaid, you're in a meetting? or can I bug you a bit? 14:54:24 RobertM, then let's do it right 14:54:24 dyasny: just replied that plugins.ovirt.org DNS entry is there 14:54:43 dyasny: this is OK, but we're going to wrap up the meeting in a few minutes, if you want to wait until then 14:54:46 I'm pretty certain we can implement it correctly 14:54:51 quaid, sure, I'll wait 14:55:05 garrett_: do you have any good examples of MW used this way? 14:55:34 quaid, I don't know of any off the top of my head anymore, but we did set up some years back this way when I worked at Novell 14:55:47 and I have seen it done this way before too 14:55:59 and, if they're done correctly, then you wouldn't notice anyway 14:56:31 right! 14:56:41 let's see if we can find a few, might help that part of the discussion 14:56:41 for example, we wouldn't have edit links by default — only when you have an account, are logged in, and have access to edit a page (which is by default, except for special pages) 14:56:46 I am not sold on wordpress either. I just feel that the front page needs to be well defined with fairly static content that leads to other area's like the wiki 14:56:59 RobertM, like my mockups, for example? 14:57:00 RobertM: I think that is something we all agree on :) 14:57:20 I can make a wiki look like that, or whatever else we agree upon 14:57:26 that's not a problem 14:57:46 garrett_: OT, but the point I want to see get worked on is your ideas around a single download - the rest of the stuff you suggest is not very controversial (except to a WordPress nerd like me) 14:58:02 there are probably clean enough themes to use as a starting point these days (as opposed to starting completely from scratch) 14:58:03 ok, I didn't want us to come to a decision here 14:58:18 just to open the discussions so we understand more what we have to discuss with the entire project 14:58:19 quaid, yes, I agree 14:58:31 quaid, on the OT part... we should talk about that too 14:58:54 it's important for the project in a few ways 14:59:01 this topic is going to be in the main meeting tomorrow, and we are trying to keep the arch@ discussion going 14:59:07 and should probably be a bit controversial (: 14:59:26 There are other consideration as well. 14:59:53 quaid, although not controversial, I would like to move forward with the logo tweak, the color, and overall site design in general too 15:00:25 garrett_, What I saw of your new design I liked 15:00:28 garrett_: I totally get your desire to pick one theme system, though, so let's see if we can get that decision by tomorrow? 15:00:47 quaid, that sounds great 15:02:01 garrett_: ok, let's wrap up here, we've got a call to distract us 15:02:19 shall we close? 15:02:28 or continue with remaining topics, the famous Puppet and Jenkins? 15:02:46 * eedri is about to leave soon.. 15:03:01 quaid, sounds good to me 15:03:05 * quaid is distracted now 15:08:30 ok, I'm going to close the meeting with the close of interest :) 15:09:14 #endmeeting